A couple of starting points for discussion from chapter one:
1. Do you agree with McLaren's statement about salvation in the Old Testament:
"It's clear that in these passages [Exodus 15:2; 2 Samuel 22:3; Luke 1:69-73] the speakers aren't talking about being saved from hell. They're talking about being saved from the Egyptians, King Saul, the Romans -- about being liberated from violence and oppression and the distressing fear they engender" [pg. 21]
2. McLaren says that salvation needs to be seen not only as "salvation from hell" but rather "being rescued from fruitless ways of life here and now, to share in God's saving love for all creation, in an adventure called the kingdom of God, the point of which you definitely don't want to miss." [pg. 25]
Interested to hear your thoughts on chapter one. Email me your thoughts and I will post them here so that the conversation can begin!
JP
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- Jonathan Pedrone
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6 comments:
I can't promise everything I write will be all that well thought out, or
spelled correctly... and I can't say I have even read the first chapter of
the book... cause I haven't, I've been reading Electra Assasin, and The
Secret Message of Jesus. But I will try and squeeze in some inappropriate
jokes.
Concerning the Old Test... As far as I know, which is ALOT!, the jews of the
time were all looking for different types of Salavations ("to be saved.")
Ex. Zelots, Pharisses, ect. Then Jesus came and said "Hey of you are all
wrong. I'm not going to "save" you in any of those ways." Throughout the
Bible no one really seems to totally grasp Jesus. As well as, even the
disciples of Christ didn't understand his message fully, they didn't
understand that he came to die. So how can the people in the old test. who
have only heard the stories of the comming messiah get "the point" and his
whole story? Further more how can we, living thousands of years later think
we TOTALLY understand the POINT?
So if you want to say "Salvation meant this," or "Salvation means that" I
honestly think Jesus would say, "No, you are all wrong."
(Personally I tend to see Salvation, being "saved," (and all that other crap
we call it when you say the "Sinners prayer" aka "Magic Prayer.") as a life
style choice. Its the point in your life when you decided to live
differently.)
I believe that "Salvation" in the Old Test. LOGICALLY would have to mean
Salvation from the Romans. In the same way, if you go to a homeless person
and say "Would you like have your sins forgiven" he would probubly say "I'd
rather have a sandwich."
The point that Rob Bell seemed to be pushing throughout his book Velvet
Elvis is that we should be striving to be what God initially made us to be.
(I think it was from that book...) I think that is a good way of thinking
as far as this whole discussion goes.
The hope for this life is not to die, but to be "born again" not that,
"washed in the blood of the lamb Jesus crawls up in your body and suddenly
your life is perfect" born again, but born again as a new life style. A new
person. A person who loves God and loves his neighbors. I think is the
point of salvation. Its hope for life, not hope for death. Hope for
Judgment, not for escape. Hope for sandwiches, not for forgiveness... well
maybe not that last one, but you get the point.
Dr. Nate
this is not logical and i don't thik it ever can be! i mean ofcourse this gulf in between the new and old testement. why isn't salvation from sin spoken of in the o.t.? this is too meticulous of a debate! ps. 51 is a good rebuttle. yet, all in all brian's just stating the obvious. converting people through fear is blatant misrepresentation of the christian faith. that is clear to all, especially the heathen. pastors will keep plopping butts in seats through false threats til long after i'm dead and gone. once again, salvation for me, is a personal individual reconciliation with god. it's clear in the bible. oh and that sinner's is in the same place as the weapons of mass destruction.
mark studdock of the n.i.c.e.
'sinner's prayer'
In response to my first blog, apparently I made some… mistakes on my facts, which Jon pointed out. My point remains the same that LOGIALLY salvation would mean salvation from oppression. That was the only point I was trying to get across with that, and granted some of my facts were wrong, but I never claimed to be a historian… except that one time… with that girl… but I had good reason. Don’t judge me.
Dr. Nate
First of all, "Dr. Nate" scares me with some of his comments - especially the ones when he mentions a girl (that's scary enough as it is)
Second, this comment is a little late, and i thought this whole thing was going to be on this blog instead of at starbucks...
Anyway, I like what McLaren says when he is talking about how salvation is MORE than simply salvation from hell. We as a church tend to emphasize simply "eternal life" as the Christian life, but forget that we are being saved...it is a call to sanctification and service. What Dr. Nate talks about when he is emphasizing the "sandwich" is all too true...good job Dr. Nate! we ahould be serving, helping, and being better people. salvation, not only is the means to eternal life, but also to bettering oneself and helping others. I like how he phrases the Apostle Paul's goal, "to help them become fully formed, mature in Christ, here and now" (pg. 20) If we strive to be fully formed and mature we will serve...it comes with the territory.
Next, don't get me started on the "sinner's prayer" - that is a bunch of crap and i pray to God i never stoop to that point.
Concerning the OT, i would tend to agree with McLaren, but the OT is also full of imagery and sybolism looking forward to the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. The majority of the Israelites didn't get it, but you can't tell me that people (Moses, Abraham, David, etc.) didn't think about it and in some way knew that the afterlife was going to be taken care of too. Granted their idea of salvation would probably be focused more on their "here and now" whether that refers to service, freedom from oppression/enemies, living a life that honored and pleased God...or all of the above and more.
Professor D
This will be quick but, you want to tell me something that the Disciples of Christ just never really understood, ie Jesus plan for his sacrifice on the cross to forgive everyone of there sins at once, that people who lived 100s of years before Jesus was born totally got it?
Like I said I'm no theologian, I'm just trying to read things logically, and by logically I mean what makes the most sense to me personally.
So what I'm basically thinking that if you were to go to Jesus what is the point of Salvation, saving of sins, or saving from oppression, he would probably smile and say "You both have missed the point."
Dr. Nate
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